Rep. Hank Johnson: “We cannot allow these weapons to be turned on us and deprive us of our freedom”

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Kurt Wallace: This is Kurt Wallace and our special guest today on Rare is Congressman Hank Johnson of Georgia. Congressman Johnson, thanks for being with us today.

Hank Johnson: Well, thank you for having me Kurt.

Kurt Wallace: We have a very important bi-partisan legislation introduced by yourself and Raul Labrador of Idaho and it’s the Stop Militarizing Law Enforcement Act of 2014, H.R. 5478. I wanted to give you an opportunity to come on today and tell us about this legislation and why it’s so important.

Hank Johnson: Well, thank you Kurt. This is very important legislation. The framers of our constitution had in mind separation of military and civilian law enforcement. So, what we have seen creeping over the years — over the last couple of decades is a increasing militarization of police departments across the U.S.

And, it largely sprung from the failed War on Drugs. It was a part of an effort to try to curtail the flow of drugs and violence that steams from drug trafficking. This program that my legislation deals with is the 1033 National Defense Authorization Act of 1995 measure. A section of 1033 provides that surplus military equipment can be transferred from DOD to law enforcement agencies for civilian law enforcement purposes.

A number of different types of properties can be transferred. Surplus properties can be transferred under that program. My legislation gets at certain types of military grade weaponry that has come to be distributed under that program. That military grade weaponry distributed directly from DOD to state and local law enforcement agencies contributes to the over militarization of police departments throughout the US and until the legislation seeks to put some restrictions on the transfer of that kind of equipment.

Kurt Wallace: It’s my understanding that the Department of Defense as well as Homeland Security are doing these militarization type things. The Department of Defense providing weapons surplus from Iraq and Afghanistan but also there’s money that’s just given straight to the police departments under the War on Terror — under the idea that it’s about terrorism. Does this bill deal with money being given directly to the police department to use at their discretion?

Hank Johnson: No it does not and that’s an entirely different discussion and one that we quite frankly need to have. But this bill is very modest.  It simply would get at the Department of Defense transfer of certain types of military grade weaponry directly from the battle fields to state and local law enforcement agencies and even some federal law enforcement agencies.

Kurt Wallace: This is a bipartisan bill. Why is it that it’s so important to obviously any American regardless of their political persuasion that something like this is done to stop militarizing the police?

Hank Johnson: Well, it’s important that civilians maintain control over their law enforcement agencies. And, civilians do that through their governmental agencies — their state local legislatures be it the state legislature or a county commission or city council.  Those kinds of municipalities are governed by civilians. And, local law enforcement agencies are subject or under that civilian authority.

And so, when a law enforcement agency can supersede that balance on it’s power of having to go through civilian authority in order to acquire equipment — when they are able to get around that by petitioning the Department of Defense directly and then acquiring for free this military grade weaponry then that process acts to erode civilian authority over the local law enforcement agency.

This 1033 program, that’s exactly what it allows for. And so, we’ve seen repeated instances over the last couple of decades where state and local law enforcement agencies just fill out a form, send it in to the DOD requesting military grade equipment. And so long as they can come and pick that equipment up within 14 days ( I believe it is) they can have it.

So, once they acquire it, then they are under an obligation to use it within one year from the date of acquisition. So, this means that state and local law enforcement agencies can go out and acquire things like MRAPS, armored vehicles. They can go out and acquire drones, helicopters, high caliber weapons, long range acoustic devices, these explosive flash bang grenades which many local law enforcement agencies use when executing no knock search warrants for drugs.  And so, they acquire this equipment and then they have to use it.

So, often times you get situation where an untrained law enforcement authority with equipment that they’re mandated to use — then uses it against the very people that they are sworn to protect and serve, the citizens. And, it has frankly gotten out of hand.  And so, when a local law enforcement agency can acquire this kind of capability and then is under an obligation to utilize it, it acts to erode the civil liberties of Americans.

And, that is something that this 1033 program needs to be monitored — it needs to be restricted in the transfer of that type of weaponry in the way that it does directly to these state  law enforcement agencies that may or may not actually need the equipment.

Kurt Wallace: Do you think that this move may be — you mentioned the failed War on Drugs. I agree with you. Do you think that this move, if this passes, would be a step in the right direction to taking a strong look at the War on Drugs?

Hank Johnson: Well, I think it’s a small step in that direction. Quite frankly that is an over arching issue that has yet to be put on the table for discussion. But, I think the more that the people learn about how the War on Drugs is actually effecting law abiding citizens ability to be free in this country — I think that-that will cause the discussion on this drug war.

And, what can we do to stop this war? I think that’ll bring that issue more to the table. And I think more and more of my colleagues on the hill are beginning to have that discussion among themselves. But, we really need to make it a national discussion where people can really weigh in and make their concerns known about how this War on Drugs causes violence in our cities.

It also causes violence in the suburbs and rural areas. And how this War on Drugs is not steaming the demand for drugs. What can we do to steam the demand for drugs? And what can we do to reduce violence across the borders that cause people to actually have to come to America to escape violence? What can we do to reduce violence south of the border in areas where the drugs are being produced and transported? Where there’s a lot of money laundering going on and where there’s a lot of arms dealing, illegal arms dealing and militarization going on?

What can we do to legitimize a sickness, addiction is a sickness? And of course, drug trafficking is a crime but it steams from making drug use illegal. If we could somehow get to the point where we find some ways of steaming the demand for drugs and if drug manufacturing — let’s just say if you turn drug manufacturing like you got rid of prohibition and allowed for the production of alcoholic beverages in a lawful way — what would that do to steam the violence?

Kurt Wallace: Well, it sounds like the way you’re describing it — it’s more of a war on drug addicts versus treating the problem.  Their treating the symptoms of the problem. Which turns into crime that have been created by the law of prohibition.

We really appreciate you spending some time with us today and discussing these important issues. On the H.R. 5478 Stop Militarizing Law Enforcement Act of 2014 what is a call to action that you and your fellow congressman who are supporting this legislation ask the listeners to take?

Hank Johnson: Well, I think first of all your listeners — and by the way I do applaud you Kurt for just coming out with a such a esoteric topic but it’s a very meaningful one that has very important implications for our future freedom. But one things citizens can do is go to DontMilitarizeMainstreet.com and sign our online petition and spread it. Let’s start the American people talking about this issue.  And let’s create a groundswell of support to do something.

I mean, I look at Ruby Ridge.  Now I know I might be saying something that is explosive there. But, I look at things like Ruby Ridge where there was an overuse of law enforcement authority to apprehend someone who was merely accused of a criminal offense.  But yet innocent people — women and children killed in the process of it.

So, this violence — and of course I’m not impugning all of our law enforcement officials because 99% of them make good decisions all of the time and they are there to serve and protect. But, when you get 1%, and you’re always going to have a bad apple in every bunch, you get that 1%. If they are not placed under tight control, then it ruins the whole barrel of apples.

So, we’ve got to make sure that civilians maintain control of our domestic law enforcement. And we cannot allow these weapons to be turned on us and deprive us of our freedom. And it can happen whether on not you live way out in the country or whether or not you live in a dense inner city neighborhood. This is an issue that applies to us all. And we’re all going to have to come together to make sure that we put the breaks on it.

Kurt Wallace: Congressman Johnson, Stop Militarizing Law Enforcement Act of 2014, H.R. 5478. Thank you for being with us today on Rare.

Hank Johnson: Well, thank you sir and have a great holiday.